Free Flight, Free Speech

MIG29pilot wrote:Perfectly true, we as yet have no idea whether there are other earths out there. The important thing about our little sphere is that there must be a thousand conditions that could doom human life if not just right--the thickness of the atmosphere, the temperature, the distance from the sun--tiny changes in any and more could erase life, and yet here I am.

There's plenty to say on this topic, but I think the above is very important.

In my opinion our sphere, and you, and me, are completely unimportant and insignificant. We're all unique little snowflakes, but that doesn't make us important. The importance you see is the one you place on yourself and our earth. The view is highly ego- and geo-centric. It's a fundamental trait of Abrahamic religions as far as I can see, and I think it's a damaging and misleading basic point of view (no offense meant in any of this).

Again, I have to work, but it's pretty easy to explain just why the above view of us being important has absolutely no bearing on the probability of a god.

Also, as far as the discussion went for the first 4-5 pages, on-topic, I agree with JWocky I think. If I remember correctly he made some very good points.

One of the good things to come out of Catholicism lately in Pope Francis, and only because he's not hide bound to the RC conservative dogma.

Surely the RC Church has had it's good points, but it's so intrinsically mixed in with the meddling of Royal favor and influence, slavery and barbarism, corruption, Papal deification, and iconic worship that it doesn't represent the best of Christ's tenets, nor has it for a very long period of time.

And the RC Church has no good footing to stand on with 'saving historic documents' The burning and removing of heretical Christian subgroups texts was pursued vigorously during the early years of the RC church as it strove to contain unorthodxy.

There is a lot of un-Christian behaivior the RC Church has to answer for.

Any church, any organized religion and any ideology is made by mortal humans. Regardless of the claims, those men raise, it is just that way. The danger in this is, they can fail. Fine, failure is all to often the regular human condition. But the second worse danger coming from this is, that any other group suddenly focuses on the splinter in the eye of another group they simply dislike for reasons of their own religion/ideology and lose the perception of that fat 10x4 t-beam in their own eye. Personally, I think, humans would be better advised to try and make their own environment a better plane instead of jumping always on other people in other environments. We have enough fights to cover any demand when environments overlap, we don't really need this spontaneous jumping.

Just watched a documentary that might help believers in an objective knowable world understand that it is not all that straightforward objective.

https://youtu.be/3MSw2irv0-A

Kind regards, Vincent

I still highly doubt that someone just decided:

AND NOW WE CREATE THE HUMAN

Why should they? To be annoyed by humans? I mean, did you naver have an idea that sounded good at the time and turned out to be a giant mess?

True, but I keep my opinion.

jwocky wrote:Why should they? To be annoyed by humans? I mean, did you naver have an idea that sounded good at the time and turned out to be a giant mess?

Your question is good if viewed by itself.

I think a basic question in these discussions is "which god" does a person really talk/believe in. Because if we're discussing for example the Christian god then the question you ask has both answers and follow up questions. For example;

Why should the Christian god reveal itself (clearly)? Well, what sort of omnipotent and omniscient monster creates sinners and then command them to be good and believe and love in himself or face eternal torment, when the option was to not create us as such and is to clearly reveal himself to use so we'd all have an easier time to believe? With those options available all god really is is a sadist for making us suffer.

And is the Christian god really omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent if he managed to create all of this with knowledge of what it would be yet couldn't figure out that it'd be a mess and would be annoying?

It is a difference between choice and programming. My cousin has a doll that says 'I love you Mama', but it doesn't really love her. It is just a piece of plastic or cloth! Whatever, i don't know anything about dolls.

He created man without sin, perfect, but he gave them a free choice. And then Eve came along and eat the fruit, and that was it.

God knows who will believe in Christ, but he doesn't force them to, like the designer of the doll. There is the side of human responsibility.

legoboyvdlp wrote:He created man without sin, perfect, but he gave them a free choice. And then Eve came along and eat the fruit, and that was it.

God knows who will believe in Christ, but he doesn't force them to,

See? He knows the future. And why wouldn't he, he's omnipotent. Therefore, the notion of "choice" is a contradiction to the notion of both the omnipotence that lead to the initial creation as well as the supposed latter choices.

God can't create me AND know if I will believe in Christ yet not force me. He created me. He has this knowledge.

Further more, if you see a child running towards an intersection in a city, it won't be your fault that the child ran out there, would it? It's the child that's running, not you. And if you're not a driver, it won't be you hitting the child either, correct? But what if it would be easy for you to stop the child from running into that intersection, and you know that if you don't the child will run into it and get hit and killed by a car - and you choose not to stop the child... are you to blame for that?

Think carefully before you answer, because supposedly god is our image, or vice versa, and that's where our morals come from....




PS: I think I saw that origin story with Adam and Even and how their children then multiplied and populated the earth.... I think the film was called Taboo.... Kinky stuff....