9/11

This is a project about missing planes. An d not only MH370. Think Amelia Earhard, Flying Tiger's Super Connie and similar. Over a century, dozens of planes went missing without a trace or went down under pretty mysterious circumstances. Now, since we fly a simulator, I have this idea, we can (and I need the help of better pilots than I am) maybe reconstruct those last flights as good as we can. Not that I really expect, we solve those mysteries, I am just curious. So hwo is in?
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legoboyvdlp
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9/11

Postby legoboyvdlp » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:52 pm

Right.

First.
Why did Bush sit there in Florida in that school, reading a book with kids.
"Mr. President, the country is under attack!!!"
"Fine, just let me finish this book"
(Obviously not a quote, but, um.... Mr. Bush would be a big target. The Secret Service should have got him out of there ASAP)

Second.
Where are the NORAD F/A 18S?
They are normally there within a fairly short time.... they did not show up for over an hour.



Third.
Image

(Yep, from a conspiracy site.)

Fourth.
Image

Image

Fifth.
With Aluminium hitting reinforced concrete, well, um, where are the black boxes; where is the wreckage? Where are the wings?

Sixth.
Image

Seventh.

"official report by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) relating to the two planes that crashed into WTC on September 11, 2001 shows that they were traveling at a speed of 945 km/h and 796 km/h respectively." YET a 777 breaks up at ~600km/h at ground level.

Eighth.

"According to BTS statistics, both 11 and 77 officially never took-off on 9/11. The meticulous data kept on every airliner taking-off at every airport in the country also showed no elapsed run-way time, wheels-off time and taxi-out time, not to mention several other categories left blank on 9/11 concerning the two flights.

Although flights 11 and 77 have the above data meticulously logged on 9/10, it was suspiciously absent on 9/11, even when every other plane that took of that day had been recorded and logged by the BTS. The flight that was labelled flight 11 by air traffic control was 10 miles from Manhattan at 8:46am. If flights AA 11 and AA 77 never existed, then there are only two planes, not four, to be accounted for. Investigators who have checked the tail numbers for the planes which departed as UA 93 and UA 175 on 9/11 (namely N591UA and N612UA respectively) believe that these planes are still in service"

ACARS, a system much like electronic mail and GPS, shows that United 175 and United 93 were flying over the Midwestern part of the United States long after their supposed “crashes”


Ninth

Image

Can anyone help debunk these theories?
Any FAA 121 crash reports?


To me, the theory that Bush and the est had foreknowledge sounds pretty reasonable.
It is also a fair excuse to turn America nearky into a police state (just go through airport security!!)
Also, a nice reason to go to war with Iraq.


Yeah, I'm reading too many conspiracy theory sites.
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Re: 9/11

Postby Lydiot » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:55 pm

Seems like a mix of shooting down strawmen, misunderstanding and just nonsense. Sources would be nice.
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Re: 9/11

Postby legoboyvdlp » Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:13 pm

Yeah, my brain has been fried recently regarding the British Empire, Algebra, and English. Also, I got up at 5 AM. 6 hours sleep does not agree wih me. On top of that, I have the cold, flu, or whatever it is.

Yep, it is probably nonsense.
But I do think the aluminium versus concrete/steel is plausible.
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Re: 9/11

Postby Lydiot » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:05 am

legoboyvdlp wrote:Yeah, my brain has been fried recently regarding the British Empire, Algebra, and English. Also, I got up at 5 AM. 6 hours sleep does not agree wih me. On top of that, I have the cold, flu, or whatever it is.


Not sure how old you are, but if I had a cold I'd have a nice glass of Whiskey... Not that it helps....

legoboyvdlp wrote:Yep, it is probably nonsense.
But I do think the aluminium versus concrete/steel is plausible.


Well, but that's a strawman as far as I recall. I don't think the official version says aluminum cut through concrete and steel beams to the point of collapsing the towers, but rather that the ensuing heat from the burning fuel etc weakened the beams to the point they could no longer fully support the weight. That's what I recall the official version says.
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Re: 9/11

Postby legoboyvdlp » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:17 am

How did it even break through the tower, and explode inside?

That's like saying throwing butter at a frying pan will open a hole in the pan.

And look at this image:

Image
See how it is leaning?
Yet, it just fell straight down. (Thank goodness). It did not fall like a cut tree (which would undoubtedly cause damage to other buildings.... ) but down.
And according to this website, http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/tower ... ldust.html

Photographs and videos document dense clouds of pulverized concrete dust being ejected from the towers within the first seconds of the collapses. That these thick opaque light-colored clouds carried the bulk of the floor-slab concrete is verified by the composition and fallout pattern of dust around Ground Zero.

Within the first few seconds of the collapses, the motion of the falling top relative to the intact structure was only a few feet per second. Clearly the speed of the falling top relative to the building was insufficient to convert concrete to fine powder.

You can prove this to yourself by dropping a concrete block from a height of, say, 20 feet. The block may break into several pieces, but it will not turn to powder. Even if you were to drop a piece of concrete from the height of the towers -- 1360 feet -- it would not turn to powder when it hit the ground.

Have you a possible explanation of such dense clouds of fine dust?

I'm not sure...

(Please don't think I am the sort of person who believes everything they read... I am just skeptical of the official report)
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Re: 9/11

Postby legoboyvdlp » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:21 am

http://consciouslifenews.com/911-prove- ... e/1145271/

His points sound plausible.
I am not sure....
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Re: 9/11

Postby HJ1an » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:00 am

legoboyvdlp wrote:How did it even break through the tower, and explode inside?


Throw an egg at a basket at full force and all the egg yoke will be mostly inside too. Then imagine if the egg yoke explodes into fire and burn in your basket.

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Re: 9/11

Postby legoboyvdlp » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:29 am

Since my mother does not exactly like the idea, I don't think I will try that. :D
Not that I wouldn't love to, but...
Image
Image


Joking aside, this was a very great tragedy. Mah it never be repeated, whatever the cause.
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Re: 9/11

Postby jwocky » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:25 pm

I am feeling a headache approach ... again. Because I have had discussions like that too often and a lot of it involves some highly sophisticated math and physics knowledge, then you have the problem with the forged pics, some people patched together to support their conspiracy theories and then, there are some purely invented things involved on that side of the spectrum. And honestly, it is too early for me to go through it point by point, so I give you just a hint ..

You look at the photo what a bird strike can do to a plane and then you look at the WTC images. Now, a bird, lets say 1lb of mass can, if the angle is right, damage the skin of a plane, but in the process, the bird is smashed and then simple thrown to the side because he ends up on the beams carrying this skin and slides away along the rounded shape of the plane. It's a dynamic parallelogram of forces and it involves some nasty integrals to describe it mathematically.
Now, if you look at the WTC, it was slightly heavier than such a bird. And it couldn't move away or slide anywhere because it was a building anchored on the ground. So there was no way, a plane can push it out of the way. So at the moment of impact, you have the situation, that nothing can move out of the other's way. It's not like a bird strike.
The other thing is, the WTC was constructed by rows of T-beams standing upright on the floors along the outer walls. The whole construction was intended to hold force in the vertical direction. The impact was almost horizontally. And since nothing in whole could fly out of the other's way, the parts did. The plane and the building were deformed basically each in the relation of the resistance forces, their internal construction brought up. Now, you see it as ONE building and ONE plane, but what actually hit and was hit were complex constructions of parts of different resistance and ability to deform. For example, the visible outer walls of the WTC weren't even bearing weight, all was sitting on those steel T-beams. The walls themselves were not much resistance and so weren't the aluminium skil stripes of the plane's skill. Which kind of equalizes it. If you could take the force and speed vectors against the resistance vectors, you could simulate the impact in a computer. You are right, the plane disintegrates but it disintegrates INTO the building because it has no other place to go at this point. It knocks some T-beams out, bigger parts, for example the engines hit a split-split-split second before the wings and thus the wing tanks make it surprisingly far in till they get ripped open. And during this whole process they also take parts of the building with them inside, like pieces of wall, T-Beams and a lot of dry-wall from the inner separations. This is a process that virtually uses up energy (energy can't really used up, it is changed into break-ups and deformations, of course) but thus, the speed of every part of this mess is in general decreasing with every micro impact. So, an engine for example going inside the building through a drywall appears as the winner in terms of physics, but actually, the drywall slows the engine still down. Then, there is friction. You wouldn't think, carpet can stop a plane, but enough carpet actually can slow the sliding through the building by little amounts and all those amounts add up. On ther other side of the building, you see the "outbreak" and there is no plane anymore, it's mostly gas, flames (blown forward by the air pressure change created by the impact, parts of drywall, aluminium parts and, that is the give-away, a dark cloud. If you compare the color of the "smoke", you see, you have right after the impact some very dark clouds there, that become lighter for a few minutes after the impact and then darker again. The reason is, there was a lot of dust involved. The dust makes it appear darker, but the dust settles down faster while the lighter colored smoke still prevails. That is, till the ensuing fires spread over plastic materials and the remaining T-beams start to become crumbly under the heat. The begin of this process, when the remaining T-beams start to cave in is also signified by more dust (from the upper floors) and thus, at the moment, the T-beams start to bend before breaking, the "smoke" appears darker again because it's not smoke alone anymore, but also added dust. You may have seen in movies similiar dark explosion clouds, they are made with motor oil and dust. Same effect.

So, bottom line: A plane can bring down a building of that size and weight with that construction. Because of the size and weight of the building and it's construction, it can.

Now, at the moment, I don't feel like dealing with all the rest of this conspiracy theory, maybe I return to it when I had more coffee and my phone calls out of the way. In fact, as any writer, I love good conspiracy theories, and, maybe to your surprise, every mathematician who works with game theory, hidden sets in population dynamics or society math as it is called nowadays, loves a good conspiracy theory even more. But well, that means "good" as in logical, not based on just lack of knowledge and mere paranoia and whateve4r people think they need to hate. A good conspiracy theory has to be at least logical and apply to the basic laws of physics. This one doesn't, but it takes a close look because it hangs a little above the usual physics 101 class in school.
So, at this moment, it is like the famous bridge scene in Titanic.
Ismay: "This ship can't think"
Andrews: "She is built from steel, sir, I assure you, she can and will"
Because Andrews, the engineer, knows a few things about his business, the mere user of technology, Ismay, doesn't. And for Ismay, belief had replaced the need for knowledge but at some point, he treated his belief like knowledge and it caught him cold.
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